Office Hours

- Hi, my name is Kaison Ward. Welcome to "Office Hours." I'm here with Dr. Carlton J. Fong. How are you doing today?

- I'm doing pretty good. End of the semester, but yeah, doing well.

- Thank you for coming. We really appreciate you.

- Of course, happy to.

- So we're just gonna jump right in, so just go ahead and tell us about yourself and your role here at Texas State University.

- Sure, so I'm an Associate Professor in the College of Education, Department of Curriculum and Instruction. I came here in 2017, and I do research on student learning and motivation and kind of what helps them succeed in college.

- So are you more like research heavy or teaching heavy right now in your position?

- So the position normally combines both teaching and research, and my teaching is mostly with our Ph.D. students in our program. And so I'm helping them learn the theories and the research methods in our field, and then I do a lot of research too so I would say it's probably 50/50.

- Okay, awesome. And before we get too deep in, let's start off with an icebreaker. If you could instantly master one skill, what would it be and why?

- Ooh. There are multiple probably, but one that comes to mind is like freehand drawing.

- Okay.

- Because when I see people do that, I'm just like so amazed, like I'm literally like stick figure level and I would just love to be able to like draw beautiful art, that just is so cool to me, so.

- I agree. Is that something you already tried to learn or?

- I took one drawing class I think when I was in middle school and it kind of stopped there. And since then, there's like Photoshop and Canva and so I'm really into like design too, but I just can't get my hands to it. I can get my mouse too, but not so much the hand.

- Okay, see I'm catching you on the graphic design part.

- Yeah.

- I'm there with you. So where did you grow up and what was it like?

- I grew up in San Francisco, California, the Bay Area, so shout out there, and yeah, I loved it. It was such a fun, diverse, upbeat city, great weather, great food, you know, rode the public transit there to school and back and just had a great time next to the ocean with friends and yeah, I really loved it.

- Did you have any teachers that pushed you academically early on?

- So many. I mean, I was a... I'll just say it, I'm a nerd, like I just really loved school. I was blessed to have just so many teachers I think at multiple grade levels that just really inspired me, really challenged me, really just instilled that love of learning. I remember just high school teachers, you know, reading literature and psychology classes just really inspiring me to keep digging in, to not be satisfied with like just the surface level knowledge, but just to get really deep into learning. And I think that really blossomed in college when you really could kind of chart your own adventure, you know, with different classes, with different research opportunities, and that just really kind of set things off for me.

- So you completed your Ph.D. in Educational Psychology from UT Austin, and your bachelor of arts in Cognitive Science from UC Berkeley, so what drew you to those fields particularly?

- You know, a lot of researchers will say this that sometimes research is me search and I think I just wanted to search for understanding of just myself, you know, how do I learn? You know, why do I feel the way that I do? Why do I perceive the things that that I do? And that just always drew me in, like studying or procrastination, like all of these things I think a lot of us are accustomed to, like what are the factors behind that? What are the processes behind that? And so I was just personally curious just for myself and I think that translated into studying those fields and really getting into it. And so I actually did a minor in education and I started doing research with a professor in education at UC Berkeley, Randi Engle. And I didn't know that you could study education, like I was like, "Wait, that's a field? Like I can do this like for a job?" Like that just opened my eyes. And my mentor, she really inspired me to really understand this field, to explore this field. And she challenged me, "Hey, have you considered grad school? Like you can keep doing research and keep studying this area." And I was like, "I didn't even know like that was a possibility," and so that's kind of how the whole thing kind of started.

- So you went from California to Texas, that's a big change, big shift, what was that like for you?

- It is a big change. I would say the weather was definitely a factor. I mean, I've lived in Texas now for close to 20 years, so I think I've somewhat adjusted to the summers.

- You're acclimated now.

- But I won't lie, that was brutal. And I wanna say the summer I arrived in Texas, I think it was 2008, and I wanna say that was like one of the hottest summers on record. And I was like, "I didn't know the nights can still be 100 degrees outside. That's real."

- That's Texas heat for you.

- Yeah.

- So Texas State was founded as a teachers college, so what brought you here and what do you enjoy the most about your role?

- So actually before starting my tenure track role, I actually was what's called a per course lecturer where a department needs an instructor to teach a class for some reason. And so this was actually years before even applying to the position, I taught a psychology class actually. And I still remember my first day going to campus and I parked in one of the garages. It was my first time setting foot on the campus, you know, getting lost. So I was just like wandering around trying to find my building and there was a student who was on one of those like golf carts, you know, you see on campus. And he stopped right next to me and said, "Sorry, but I think you look a little lost. Like, can I help you find your building?" And I was like, "Yes, please." And he not only, he directed me to the building, but he actually said, "Why don't you just get in the golf cart and I'll drive you there?"

- There is.

- And I was just like, "This campus is different. Like, this campus is special." And I think that that story has stuck with me and that was, gosh, over 10 years ago because it really exemplified like the types of students that come to Texas State, like they are just so welcoming, just so willing to help, wanting to give back. And I just really have sensed that over all my years here, like the students here are really special and they wanna be here, and you feel that. And I think that's different than other places I've been at.

- Yeah, I agree, that definitely encompasses a Bobcat right there. I think you described that perfectly. So from all the research you've done on student motivation and self-regulation, what has been the most surprising finding and how can students use that insight in their everyday lives?

- There are a lot of little tidbits I could speak on, but I think one that has stuck with me for a couple years now is on the topic of help-seeking. And I think it's a really fascinating topic, both theoretically but also practically, right? Nearly every person is gonna need some academic assistance at numerous points in their college journeys. And so what we found was there's different types of help-seeking, right? There are times when you know you need help, but you're not gonna seek it out for whatever reason. There are times when you know you need help and you go get the help, whether it's from a friend or a TA or a instructor. But when you go get the help, you are actually not there to learn, you're just there to get the answer. And we've all been there, right? Like, "I just need to know the answer to this question and then I'm out." And then there's the third type of help-seeking, which is called instrumental help-seeking. And that's when students go to not only get the help, but they wanna learn, so they want to actually master the material. So when they go seek help, they're asking questions, they want to get deeper and they're more curious. So what we found in our research was super interesting. We found that that type of help-seeking where you just get the quick answer, that actually was linked with like a decrease in academic performance.

- Really?

- So we were really surprised because we're like, "These are students that are still seeking the help, like they're going to get help, but when they just get the quick answer, they're actually getting lower grades." And so that's really stuck with me because I think we're really quick in just saying, "Hey, go get help, like go ask," but we don't really help students like learn how to seek help or seek out the right type of help. And so that's something that I really want to emphasize that it's not just about seeking help, yes, that's the first step, but actually take that next step and say, "Actually learn from that, actually understand and master the reasons for the answer."

- So going back to your research about help-seeking, learning these different ways on how students are retaining information, did that change the way that you teach?

- Yeah, actually one thing that I do, which is just like a subtle shift, but I actually don't call my office hours office hours anymore, I actually just call it student hours. And that was just like an intentional tip that I learned a couple years ago. And I think that kind of reframes like what that time is like because I think office hours can sometimes connote like, "Oh, you're coming into my space and you're taking my time," but student hours are like, "No, this is for you. Like this is for the students, this is for your learning, for your growth." And so I think that was just like a subtle shift, and I tell students, "When you come to office hours or when you email me for questions, don't just ask a question, tell me what you are thinking." And so I'll be, not snarky, but I'll be like, "Hey, like I'm not gonna answer this question until you tell me like just your initial thoughts. And they can be completely wrong, but I just want you to give it your best shot and just tell me like what you're leaning towards or like what was your first thought? Start there, and then we can work from that and try to deepen that understanding. And so I really push students to give me what you're thinking and then we can work from there. I don't want to jump right into just giving you the answer.

- Okay, I like that. I think that also kind of goes into, like you said earlier, not just getting the answer, having a more conversational piece. I know when we're learning about academic excellence and how to succeed, office hours is one of those first things that people talk about. So being able to build that connection with your professor is really important, so thank you for that. You often use meta-analysis in your research. Can you explain what that is to our listeners and why it matters?

- So this is a really interesting method. I mean, I do it a lot so I think it is interesting. It actually came out of education, actually. It's one of the few statistical methods that actually came out of education. And the very first meta-analysis was actually someone that wanted to study the topic of class size and learner performance, like if it's a smaller class versus a bigger class. And what this researcher did was he looked at all the previous studies in the literature and said, "Let me compile and aggregate all the findings from the prior literature and bring it all together, integrate them together and see what the average effect is, but also when do those effects differ? Do they differ by student population? Do they differ by grade level, by all these different characteristics?" And so we're essentially looking at all the previous literature on a topic, bringing it all together and trying to understand kind of the overall effect, but also when that effect may differ, right? And those meaningful variations are what's really interesting, right? Because I think in a lot of education, we're interested in what works, right? Like how do we teach better? How do we learn better? Like what works? And I think there's a lot of nuance there, and so when we look back at the literature, it's not just what works, but it's what works for whom and under what circumstances? And we can systematically look at that with meta-analysis.

- When you figure out what works, what do you do with that data? Do you give it to schools? Are you giving it to professors personally or?

- Yeah, we try to get the word out in a lot of different ways. I think the primary way is through journal articles, and that's typically for the field for other scholars to read about and to build upon, but also to practitioners. So we'll go to conferences, we'll make infographics, we'll put out different news articles that are for the masses and really try to share, "Hey, these are what we found," and really try to influence practice. And so actually one of the grad students and I, we worked on a meta-analysis actually on cheating. And so we wanted to look at the relationship between how motivated students were in school and how that affected their academic dishonesty. And so we actually wrote a news article that was published in a bunch of different news outlets like the Houston Chronicle, and we actually got a lot of press for that, which was really cool. And so what actually happened was a teacher in high school, I think I forget the state, like Nebraska or something, he actually DM'd me and said, "Hey, I read your article and is it okay if I share it with my high school students? I actually want them to read it and write like a reflection on it." And I was like, "Yeah, you don't have to ask my permission, like you can totally do that." And he was super cool, like he shared the article and to a bunch of high school students. And then what he did was he shared with me all their reflections, he crossed all the names off, and I got to read like 30 reflections about some research that we did. And I was just like, "Wow, like talk about impact, like talk about seeing that impact kind of in real life," so.

- That's awesome. So thinking back in your own college experience, was there a personal moment that pushed you towards studying motivation and student success?

- Yeah, I think there are a lot of different moments. I think just from my own personal journey, it was the classes that I struggled in the most that I think got me interested in how to support college students because I took Chem 1A, you know, Intro Chemistry, don't ask me what a titration is, still like, not like that just didn't stick with me, and I also took like an intro to like computer programming. Yeah, definitely not my shining moments on my transcript, but it was those experiences that at least at the time I said, "Oh, because I didn't do so well in those classes, maybe those fields aren't for me, right? Maybe I can't be pre-med or maybe I can't be a computer programmer."

- Right.

- And I think I was really fascinated by the types of perceptions of those experiences and why students like myself often make these judgments, right, based off of maybe, quote, unquote, "failures," right? And so I think those moments for myself really got me interested on, "Okay, how do college students feel when they might not be doing as well as they like in their classes? Or how do they feel when they feel like, 'Oh, maybe this major isn't for me,' or, 'Maybe I'm not cut out for this,' right?" These really important kind of self-judgments that students make, those psychological processes kind of captivated me and then wanting to study that more.

- How does a student's sense of belonging affect their performance and persistence?

- This is a huge question right now, and I think belonging has become just a really critical topic. I think universities and colleges and educational institutions, they've been places of learning for centuries, right? But I think now it's evolved to not just encompass learning, but also to encompass student belonging. And belonging is complex, it's multidimensional, right? It happens at multiple levels. Do you belong in a particular class? Do you feel like you belong or you fit in on a campus level? Or do you also have belonging like maybe within your social realm, like with different friends and peers, right? So you have all of these different layers and levels to which you can belong to. And they're all really essential because when you feel like you don't belong, when you don't fit in there, it's gonna be really hard to be motivated, it's gonna be hard to be engaged, to want to pay attention in class if you feel like, "I don't even belong in this space." So it's gonna have these downward effects, you're gonna not want to try as hard, not want to put in the effort, put in strategies for learning. And that's gonna typically have kind of downward effects on students' academic achievement and performance. And it's particularly salient when the context and your identity don't match, right? When you don't see people that are similar to you, you might feel kind of belonging threat, right? Like even more so how I perceive the context to be, "Ooh, maybe I don't really fit in here." All the more, the need to belong kind of can have kind of a extra influence on these relationships.

- So in 2023, you received a grant from the National Institutes of Health to support student agency in STEM education. What does student agency mean and what do you hope to achieve with that?

- This is a really exciting project that we're in right now. So student agency, I guess the contrast, I'll start there, is kind of being a passive learner, right? And I think we can kind of relate to this, right? Sometimes we slink into the lecture hall and we're just like, "Okay, I'm just gonna receive whatever the instructor's gonna deliver to me, right? And I'll take notes and I'll pay attention and that's it, right?" And that's no judgment on there, but that's relatively passive, right? And I think what agency is kind of getting at is students have a role, right? They have autonomy and they have choices that they can make in the learning experience. And you can actually kind of collaborate and with the instructor and co-construct what best helps learning in your view. And so with agency, we really wanna encourage students to, "Hey, you don't have to remain like a passive learner in whatever class. You can talk with your instructor, you can share with them your interests, you can share with them the best ways that you learn," or, "Hey, the way that you talked about this topic, you know, that was awesome, I really got into that. Or that activity you did, I would love more of those things, right?" You can bring your own input into the flow of instruction. And what's really fascinating is we try to kind of implement this intervention where we kind of randomized the student sample. So half the group, we gave them messages like, "Hey, you have agency, like you could actually like be involved in how you learn and how your instructors are actually teaching," and the other half was like a test anxiety intervention. And what we found was those in the intervention group where we actually promoted their agency, they had higher belonging, they had higher intentions to persist in STEM and they got better grades. And so we actually think agency is a really promising solution to help students stay motivated and to stay engaged while they're learned.

- Okay, so along your academic and professional journey, was there a mentor or a key figure that helped shape your path you're on today? And how did their influence guide your work?

- Oh my goodness, too many mentors. I've been so blessed. I mean, to have my doctoral mentors, you know, professors that I went to grad school with, my undergraduate research mentor who really showed me what educational research was even like. Yeah, all of them. Honestly, I think the two things that really stuck with me is I think their curiosity for learning and research I think really stuck with me because I think that's ultimately the best part of what I do, right? I can ask questions, I can investigate a certain topic, and that just draws me in every day. And then the second part is the personal care that they poured into me, and that's something that I love doing. I love working with students, mentoring them, they teach me, and I think that's the coolest part, right? I think those two reasons of curiosity and care, I think they feed into each other, right? Because when I care for my students, I'm also curious about what they're interested in and they teach me and then we get to co-construct some new research together and that's just the coolest part.

- I like that, kind of leads into my next question, but wrapping up, looking back, what legacy or impact do you hope to leave here at Texas State University?

- Y'all are asking the big questions. I mean, I honestly think that's probably the greatest impact I could have is working with students kind of one-on-one in their own journeys, I think whether it's their research, whether it's in a class, like I get to impart not just knowledge, but I gotta impart things like I just said, like the care, the curiosity, the things that are gonna propel them towards their own goals. And so I think just one student at a time, I really wanna leave that positive impact.

- Well, that's all the questions I have. I really appreciate you joining us for "Office Hours" today.

- Thank you.